We Know Pools
How come no one wants to pay for a pool design?
The question: Would you be willing to pay a moderate fee to have your pool project designed prior to expecting pool-builders/sales-people to show up and create a picture (note that I did not call it a design) and then provide pricing based on that picture, without any real regard for hydraulics, engineering, or efficiency.
We are constantly requested to bid on a conceptual idea, and our bids are to be compared to others based on the same concept. How can a homeowner know they are getting comparable bids, how can they make sure that the cheep guy is actually providing value, and not just the cheapest construction materials, equipment, and labor.
The answer: It cannot be done. Even the most savvy homeowner can overlook or misunderstand the difference between an Intelliflo pump and a two speed pump. Especially when the competition calls their pump a variable speed pump as well. How can one know their plumbing is sized correctly to match the pumps; you can't. (worse yet, most cities don't require plumbing calculations, and even worse yet, most pool builders don't even know how to check or design the hydraulics. ) So the cheap pool bid likely has inferior pumps, mis-specified filters, and the wrong size plumbing. And the list can go on and on.
I am not trying to insinuate that there are not excellent pool builders that do understand all the dynamics of proper pool design and engineering and construction. The point I make is that in order to make sure that you are getting the most value, and a properly designed pool and be able to get "Apples to Apples" comparisons, you must get your pool professionally designed first; for a moderate cost. Then go get your bids; compare them, hire a builder and hold them to the plan's design and specifications.
If you choose the "Cheaper" route, be prepared to get the "Cheapest" pool for your money, not the most Value for your money.
In all cases, never hire pool builder that cannot prove their ability to properly design the pool. To include at a minimum, hydraulic calculations, head loss, pipe sizing, and equipment specifications to match. Don't take the "We always do it this way" for an answer. Likely they have been doing it wrong all along, but don't know how to check.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Rod Ogilvie on -
As an addition to what Rick has said, I would like to add that the pool industry appears to be splitting into two entities.
On one hand, we have the traditional side of the industry that has built pools for XXX years and they already think they know everything there is to know about building a pool. They are building pools the same way they did 20 years ago, and because they know everything, they refuse to learn about know technology, methods and equipment. They are the reason the government had to step in and make the new VGB safety laws that we all have to abide by. They refused to accept responsibility for archaic methods and technology. The result was the government had to step in because the industry would not step up. Unfortunately when the government makes rules and laws, they are often misguided as in the case of the current VGB laws. These laws are nothing but a band aid that covers the root problem rather than solves the problem. We now have expensive and unattractive suction covers that reduce the chance of a suction entrapment issue.
On the other hand of the industry is the progressive pool builder who embraces technology, methods and equipment. They devote a great deal of time and money to learning how to do things better, safer and more visually appealing. They attend community colleges and take fluid engineering, structural and design classes. They attend Genesis 3 Design Group education classes to learn from the leaders in the new movement in the pool industry.
To sum it up, THEY ARE COMMITTED TO BEING THE BEST THEY CAN BE. The result is you have had a dedicated pool professional design and build your pool with energy efficiency, safety, structural soundness and aesthetics in mind. You can be assured that you will be proud of and enjoy your pool for years to come. At the end of 10 years, if they used a pentair intelliflo pump, controller and large cartridge or DE filter, you will realize around $10,000.00 savings in energy costs (depending upon your local energy costs and pool configurations) when compared to the standard induction style pump and equipment choices the other arm of the industry uses.
They are the ones who "include at a minimum, hydraulic calculations, head loss, pipe sizing, and equipment specifications to match" (quoted from what Rick said above)
They preform these calculations because they are not only concerned with the current law, but also concerned about the fact that the law is a band aid. If they properly preform the above mentioned calculations, they will exceed the VGB requirements of minimum pipe velocities and delve into the area that would make your pool safe without the new VGB requirements.
As Rick and several other designers and builders on this list, I am passionate about what I do. After all, where else can a person make a living selling safe, clean fun! Not to mention the therapeutic, health benefits and investment that a properly designed and built pool can provide.
Follow what Rick has laid out above to help decide on your pool designer and or builder. After all, would you want to send your kids to a doctor who is up on the current medical methods, technologies and equipment, or someone who thinks they know it all and refuse to embrace the future?
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Permalink Reply by Tony Birchfield on -
Well folks,
As my first post this thread here seems the most appropriate topic to respond to as my initial interest in the Innovation Lab discussions are for education purposes. OK, I am in early planning stage to do a DIY fiberglass pool install. I have a well rounded background in building trade experience. But the whole equipment / hydraulics piece has me rather nervous. I have enough sense to know that I should get this part right.
So to answer the question as to weather or not I would pay for design the answer is yes. However, with hopes of doing the bulk of the work I am looking for more of a consulting type service rather than full design. So for what it is worth I have found this to be somewhat challenging. Each person that I speak to for “design service” wants to sell me a pool package.
I have reached out to equipment vendors thinking that they might have some vesting to assist in some limited plumbing / piping design thinking if they sell the equipment then they might be suited provide some service. Unfortunately, I am learning that I could get equipment elsewhere much cheaper.
Bottom line for me is that this design work that I am looking for I am trying to value at 100 dollars and folk are wanting like 3X that much for info, piping schematic, with size and control. For now, I will continue to learn what I can via forums and etc. and look for experts to fill the void as necessary. I do plan to outfit pool Pentair.
The pool setup is small scale at 11 X 23 6K gallons but there is an 8ft spillover spa approx 600 gal. The shallow end of pool is approx 20 ft away from equipment pad. Spa will likely have 20 jets with jetpump. Pool has gas heat with intent to independently control spa and pool temp. Also, solar circuit with 4- 2X20ft mats laying flat near the pool. Solar to heat pool first. Also, hope to have two water features / deck water streams.
Anyway, much of the water flow control I do understand by looking at plumbing schematics on line and this appear to be pool and spa combo. In truth I am kind of confused on how to independently control water temp between pool and spa. I did not think this was possible but someone told me that it was. I figure one would just heat the pool as necessary in pool / spillover mode and then heat spa as necessary in spa mode. Comments welcome on this one.
So thanks for listening. And for me on the paying for the pool design has been more of an issue that I have not been able to pay for what I want to receive.
Thanks,
Tony
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Permalink Reply by Brian on
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Great topic, I've actually been looking for he same service but for an existing pool, I want to explore a slide and some water features maybe an integrated spa but I wanted to get a sound concept down first before bidding it. I've looked for someone with no real luck thus far.
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Permalink Reply by Paul on
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I am in the process on getting a IG (16x32 rect) pool installed here soon, and I have had five of the area's (St.Louis) pool builders give me bids, and none of them provided designs, except for the one that I hired. The design was only a layout of the pool, 3D, and none of our areas pool builders discussed or designed hydraulics. The only way to compare apples to apples for me was to compare equipment (all Pentair), and the add ons (deck jets, concrete, etc) I attempted to purchase software to create and design my pool and landscaping, but the software was crap.
I guess from a consumers point of view, I look at the design being a part of the companies sales presentation. It seemed like all my bids were a two step process, where the came for the initial contact, then they came back with the bid. If part of that bid has my design included, it makes the presentation more appealing to hire the pool company.
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Permalink Reply by Rick Chafey buildredrock.com on -
This is a response to a few of the threads in this group.
First, you will get what you pay for, period.
So in response to Tony's intent to value or find a pool designer to design his project for 100 bucks. Lets break down a few things. First a fiberglass pool install is significantly different than that of a custom in-ground project, and I have zero experience with fiberglass pool installs, but with a pre-configured pool shell, I think it would be irresponsible for the shell manufacturer to not provide a engineered, and "certified" hydraulic design and plumbing schematics included in the price of the shell since they will repeat this process numerous times and with a fixed size/volume the turnover rates and flow requirements are elementary to define. The length of the run to equipment would change, but they could set up a simple table to adjust pipe size etc for ranges of distances. Again since the options, and flow requirements are relatively fixed. This should be a provided service from the manufacturer.
However in the scheme of inground, shotcrete/gunite type projects, pool design is not just simple hydralics, engineering etc. First lets discuss the typical Pool Co. standard operating procedure. Typically they have salespersons that has very little training (if any) w/ respect to architecture, landscape design, and dont even understand the basic elements of design. I would also guess that less than 1% of Pool sales reps have any training or understanding of structural engineering, or hydraulics. Based on that model, you should expect to be able to get "Free Design" with the pool. However I need to again explain that a pretty picture of a pool in plan view or 3d is not a pool design, it is a pool concept, and most of those concepts are regurgitated 100's of times, and lack creativity, balance, flow, proper massing, etc. Most pool companies stop at the concept, and use rules of thumb to size pumps, size piping, etc. or worse, send out the concepts to subcontractors and then allow them to use their best judgement to specify the pool.
I have personally spent well over $100,000 on my education, training, and experience. Not to mention the 1000's of hours set aside for that education. I take that education and experience and apply it for my clients to provide them the most creative, properly balanced, architectural accurate, most efficient operating, and safe design, while providing them with all of their dreams and expectations. It takes a great amount of time, dedication and expertise to provide a proper pool design, and guess what, our designs are worth paying for, and that is why we charge for them. We don't over-charge for our designs, and we don't provide them for free; we charge a reasonable fee for our design services.
You would not expect a custom home design for free, and since I am also a custom home builder I can make the argument that a swimming pool can be more technical, typically has more structural requirements, and has more safety concerns than the average home, yet our industry has survived on average workmanship, below average designs, hydraulically inefficient systems, and a poor safety record.
I would make this simple recommendation. Ask your builder/designer what type and where they got their education in exterior environment design. How much continuing education do they take. What pool specific design education do they have. Then ask for examples of complete pool designs similar in scope to the project you are discussing. Don't let pretty pictures disguise a lack of proper designs.
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